What's in a Name?
So I'm back to thinking about not being "real" Salamanders but rather being a chapter of my own invention. Partially this is because I like doing creative things like that. Partially, this is because my paint scheme is not really a Salamanders one (Think of a White Panther or Mortifactor but make it black and snot green). Partially it is because I found a neat article on Bolter and Chainsword about Do It Yourself Chapters. And partially it is because I have an idea.
So you have a Founding, let's say 23rd (because 23 is large enough to be interesting and also prime). A proto-Chapter is created and a group of about 20 Marines from another chapter sent to train up these boys and make the chapter operational. They settle on a homeworld and begin, but the homeworld is attacked before they get the Chapter operational. Chapter is involved in a desperate and losing struggle to repel the invaders during which the 20 trainers are all killed. When all seems lost, a company or two of Salamanders drop pods in and drives off the attackers, saving the planet and the proto-Chapter. The Salamanders leave 20 of their guys to finish off the proto-Chapter's training. This would be a very formative event for the Chapter and would lead them to take a lot of Salamander doctrine, similar colors, and perhaps even part of their Chapter name as they emulate their saviors. They might even consider the Salamanders as their spiritual parent chapter regardless of the actual gene-seed. I think that's an interesting backstory that explains the similar, but not identical uniforms and doctrine I tend to use.
One of my issues is gene-seed though. I can either say my seed is from the Ultramarines/White Scars/Imperial Fists and I know it. (Or, if the invaders destroyed the original Fortress Monastery I might not know who my gene-seed came from.) Thus, the original training cadre would be from that Chapter. That's not too tough.
The other option would be to have actually been seeded from Salamander stock. all we know is that the Salamanders seeded no SECOND Founding Chapters. Their seed is pure and there is NO reason not to have used it. However, we also know that NO known daughter chapters exist. We know that Salamanders have black skin and red eyes, but it is intimated that this might be environmental and thus limited to Nocturne. Certainly if any later founding Chapters exhibited these obvious physical traits then you'd KNOW they were Salamander daughters. The obvious conclusion is that the Salamander gene-seed does not AUTOMATICALLY convey the black skin and red eyes. So it is POSSIBLE to have been formed from Salamander geneseed.
Next problem: Since no one knows of any Salamander daughters, obviously if my new Chapter was a daughter, the records would have to have been lost. From our point of view, that is easy if out Fortress Monastery was destroyed, but why doesn't the Imperium have a record? More to the point, wouldn't Salamanders have been sent to train us then and wouldn't the Salamanders know? Could the politics between the Marine Chapters mean that the Ultramarines might have politicked to have have themselves train this new chapter so, unlike the Salamanders it is organized properly? If that is the case, does it stretch coincidence that the Salamanders happened to be the ones to drop pod in and save them?
None of this even touches what KIND of world the homeworld is (I like ice and snow because I think it looks good on vehicles. What kind of people live there? what has the Chapter done post being made operational. Etc.
Thoughts anyone?
So you have a Founding, let's say 23rd (because 23 is large enough to be interesting and also prime). A proto-Chapter is created and a group of about 20 Marines from another chapter sent to train up these boys and make the chapter operational. They settle on a homeworld and begin, but the homeworld is attacked before they get the Chapter operational. Chapter is involved in a desperate and losing struggle to repel the invaders during which the 20 trainers are all killed. When all seems lost, a company or two of Salamanders drop pods in and drives off the attackers, saving the planet and the proto-Chapter. The Salamanders leave 20 of their guys to finish off the proto-Chapter's training. This would be a very formative event for the Chapter and would lead them to take a lot of Salamander doctrine, similar colors, and perhaps even part of their Chapter name as they emulate their saviors. They might even consider the Salamanders as their spiritual parent chapter regardless of the actual gene-seed. I think that's an interesting backstory that explains the similar, but not identical uniforms and doctrine I tend to use.
One of my issues is gene-seed though. I can either say my seed is from the Ultramarines/White Scars/Imperial Fists and I know it. (Or, if the invaders destroyed the original Fortress Monastery I might not know who my gene-seed came from.) Thus, the original training cadre would be from that Chapter. That's not too tough.
The other option would be to have actually been seeded from Salamander stock. all we know is that the Salamanders seeded no SECOND Founding Chapters. Their seed is pure and there is NO reason not to have used it. However, we also know that NO known daughter chapters exist. We know that Salamanders have black skin and red eyes, but it is intimated that this might be environmental and thus limited to Nocturne. Certainly if any later founding Chapters exhibited these obvious physical traits then you'd KNOW they were Salamander daughters. The obvious conclusion is that the Salamander gene-seed does not AUTOMATICALLY convey the black skin and red eyes. So it is POSSIBLE to have been formed from Salamander geneseed.
Next problem: Since no one knows of any Salamander daughters, obviously if my new Chapter was a daughter, the records would have to have been lost. From our point of view, that is easy if out Fortress Monastery was destroyed, but why doesn't the Imperium have a record? More to the point, wouldn't Salamanders have been sent to train us then and wouldn't the Salamanders know? Could the politics between the Marine Chapters mean that the Ultramarines might have politicked to have have themselves train this new chapter so, unlike the Salamanders it is organized properly? If that is the case, does it stretch coincidence that the Salamanders happened to be the ones to drop pod in and save them?
None of this even touches what KIND of world the homeworld is (I like ice and snow because I think it looks good on vehicles. What kind of people live there? what has the Chapter done post being made operational. Etc.
Thoughts anyone?
Comments
While the 40K fluff is designed to be really pliable, it is a pretty established fact that the Salamanders had no successors, and not one I would go against, unless you want a lot of arguments with the die-hards out there. Still, it an option.
However I think there is a way around your problem. How about you keep to your original idea that the proto-chapter was indeed seeded from one of the bigger chapters (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists etc.). The rest of story is the same, except that you set you founding during a time of great turmoil for the Imperium, such as The Age of Apostasy, where records of who is being founded and where are confused and likely to be lost (hell, they don’t even know about two of the original marine legions, is it so hard to loose a chapter?). When the Salamanders turn up to save the day, all the trainers from the original chapter are indeed dead and perhaps a radical Salamanders’ Chapter Master sees a chance to spread the Chapter’s doctrines without the risk of giving away precious gene-seed. At a more basic level who would skip a chance to create an ally? In addition, the effects of what ever strife the Imperium is suffering at the time means the proto-chapter is unlikely to receive aid and would die out anyway - how could the Salamanders allow this?
It also could add another element to your Chapter. If the Salamanders were to override the original doctrine of the proto-chapter then they would be wise to suppress this fact from the ‘farther’ chapter as well as the new Chapter's marines and perhaps even from the Imperium itself. This leads to all sorts of interesting possibilities of shadowy conflicts with the ‘farther’ chapter or even Inquisitors. It also raises the question of personal conflicts, as any poor marine with prominent Ultramarine or White Scar’s gene-seed and characteristics (for example) tries to reconcile his personality with the Salamanders’ doctrines.
As to the final point, why would the Salamanders intervene to save the proto-chapter; well, it’s far less of a stretch if they are not of their gene-seed in the first place. Perhaps their homeworld’s are close, strengthening the reasons that the Salamanders took them under their wing.
Anyway, I went on for a bit there, but I do love the fluff me! Hope some of that helps…
I think what the fluff says is that there are 1) no Second Founding successors; 2) no CONFIRMED successors of any Founding; 3) but it is LIKELY that Salamander gene-seed would have been subsequently used; and 4) that examples where it might have been used are the Storm Giants and the Black Dragons because of similar tactics and physique.
I liked the Salamanders for the job because I'm already painted and equipped along their lines and the Sallies are noted for being compassionate, loyal, stead-fast, and good allies. In Armageddon, they are noted for being the ones who took the unglamorous duty of defending the vital supply convoys to the hive cities. At the end of the Campaign, the people of Armageddon and the IG LIKE the Sallies. It's easy to do. These people are likely to defend a planet that they see is under attack. And, the proto-Chapter is likely to feel grateful and also LIKE the Sallies. Combined with the first hand experience that Sallie combat doctrine is brutally effective when properly applied, the proto-Chapter is quite likely to choose the Sallies as a model and emulate them. Further, like so many cultures that emulate another, the copycats really can't or don't distinguish what they want or need; they just copy everything. Think of the Japanese as they went from the Shogunate to a Western style military power or the Russians "Westernizing" under Peter the Great. Thus, the proto-Chapter would end up copying many Sallie attitudes and behaviors such as loyalty, the willingness to do the unglamorous jobs, etc. They might even get a dash of Promethian Cult philosophy.
I liked your idea of using the age of Apostasy a LOT. It explains why no one else has any records of who we descended from and why everyone else was too busy to help us when we were attacked.
Thanks for commenting!
Secondly, I stand corrected about the Sallies and successor chapters, I didn't remember that stuff about the Storm Giants etc. - shame on me! I've also got to agree with you about liking the Sallies because they are ‘nice’, I remember all their fluff about living with normal humans on Nocturne etc. Its odd because one of the main attractions of the Imperium for me is that although they are the ‘good’ guys, they aren’t on the whole very nice people, and often have dark background stories. I do play Dark Angels after all! Despite this the Salamanders have always appealed…
Anyway, as you say it is very likely that the proto-chapter would ‘like’ the Sallies and be eager to emulate them.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do, I hope there are more updates soon. Any chance of some pictures at some point?
I've thought of being Storm Giant seed of course. Then I am tied to a chapter which is expected to have been Salamander descended. However, at least per Lexicanum, the Storm Giants are 26th Founding themselves and there were no later foundings.
Thought of being seeded from the White Panters or the Mortifactors, both scions of the Ultramarines. Since my armor paint scheme is similar to both of them, that would make a certain heraldic sense. However, the White Panthers are 26th Founding. Mortifactors are Second Founding though so that might work. (Again, all per Lexicanum).
I also considered the White Scar descendants of which I personally favor the Storm Lords. (At one point I started a Storm Lord army until I realized what it is to paint red and white together like that.) Their legacy could be used to slightly alter Sallie tactics.
Finally, I considered being descended from the Star Phantoms. The Star Phantoms are mentioned in passing by GW in WD101 back in like '88 or '89. They are part of a drop pod attack in Badab War and are awarded a homeworld that had belonged to one of the rebel Chapters. GW never says anything about them ever again. We don't know what founding they are or whose seed they are or anything. I like them because they have a neat piece of history and it lets me be definite about my seeding w/o being definite about it. The problem is that if I say I'm 23rd Founding and then next month WD picks up the Star Phantoms and says they are Blood Angel seeds of the 26th Founding, I'm hosed.
In all cases, I want to ultimately have the chapter pay homage to both its roots in some way.